What contributes to the yield pool and how does this happen?

Core fee generation

Transfers
Sends of KAU and KAG from wallets or accounts generate a 0.45% fee.
These are on-chain transactions, so will show on the Explorer.

Minting
Minting transactions are on-chain, so will show on the Explorer.
However, the 0.45% minting fee is applied in USD and then used to purchase the KAU or KAG depending on which was minted.
The fee is therefore off-chain.
See here for further detail

The automated blockchain fees for the minting transfers are therefore redundant and need to be "reversed".

KAU/KAG Trades
A 0.22% trading commission is applied in KAU or KAG for all trades that include KAU or KAG as one of the trading pair.
(Note: market makers are exempt from this fee, which helps in keeping spreads as tight as they are. - added 22nd Dec 22)
For trades of the KAU/KAG pair, the trading commission is in KAU.
This is off-chain, so won't show on the Explorer.

Crypto Trades
A 0.22% trading commission is applied.
The aggregate amount of these commissions is used to purchase KAU and KAG in a ratio of 50:50. At the end of the trading day, this is added to the fee pool.
This is off-chain, so won't show on the Explorer.

Virtual Debit Card
KMS account holders that select the paid plan will be eligible for 2% of all purchases up to $2000 per month, paid in KAU
Additionally, Kinesis will credit 1% into the fee pool.
This is off-chain, so won't show on the Explorer.

Metalback program
Purchases from participating merchants done via your KMS account are eligible for Metalback, paid in KAU.
The size of payments varies between merchants.
Purchases can be made using the Kinesis virtual card or external payment methods accepted by the merchant (typically external credit or debit cards).
An amount that matches the Metalback received by the purchaser is paid to the fee pool.
These amounts are funded by the merchants as an incentive to purchase from them.
This is off-chain, so won't show on the Explorer.

Kinesis Pro
Kinesis Pro will be a separate exchange run by Kinesis and targeted towards the crypto market.
Fees will be deposited into the KMS fee pool after conversion to KAU/KAG.

That rounds up the actions that directly generate fees.


How about some of the other activities within the KMS?

Redemption
In order to redeem, a transfer is required to the root account to destroy the KAU or KAG.

Native Payments
Using KAU or KAG to pay directly for something involves a transfer.

Kinesis Pay
This involves a transfer from purchaser to merchant.
The net payment amount is discounted by the transaction fee.
While the purchaser pays the full value of the item they are purchasing (discounted net amount plus transaction fee), they pay no fee over and above the value of the item, so the fee is effectively funded by the merchant.

Sale of Kinesis Mint products
Purchasing using KAU or KAG allows the purchaser to hedge their position.
If distributors, retailers and end customers do this, multiple transfer fees are possible for the same product sale.

Depositing your own bullion
This will involve minting via the EPD process.

Miner supplying metal via the Kinesis refinery
The likely route is via minting, followed by selling.
The refinery will obviously receive a refining margin from the miner, but this is part of their business model and outside of the KMS fees.


How frequently is the Master Fee Pool updated?
Updates to the Dashboard display are done daily just after midnight UTC.

 

[AmaLlulLa]

Well synopsized as usual Uchiki. Still waiting from management on exactly how those generated off chain fees are added at the end of day, will report when I get an answer.
I'm putting a bit of time and effort into actually teaching my old mind the basic mechanics of The chain Explorer. Basic question, when entering your Kau/Kag wallet address on the explorer, should the Kau/Kag balances there be precisely equal to the quoted values on the KMS dashboard ?

 

[Uchiki]

Basic question, when entering your Kau/Kag wallet address on the explorer, should the Kau/Kag balances there be precisely equal to the quoted values on the KMS dashboard ?

No.
See https://forum.kinesis.money/threads/the-kinesis-blockchain.506/#post-2349
Particularly this section:

Transactions that involve an account are handled slightly differently.
If some KAU/KAG is sent to an account, it first generates a transaction to that account's deposit address.
It's arrival triggers a second transaction which transfers the KAU/KAG to the Kinesis central Exchange account.
On the blockchain, the balance of the account's deposit address will generally therefore be shown as zero.

 

[Derek]

Basic question, when entering your Kau/Kag wallet address on the explorer, should the Kau/Kag balances there be precisely equal to the quoted values on the KMS dashboard ?

When I check my KMS account number on the chain explorer I get an error; when I use my CoolWallet address I see my balance there.

So if you care about privacy, that's an argument against a hardware wallet.

 

[AmaLlulLa]

No.
See https://forum.kinesis.money/threads/the-kinesis-blockchain.506/#post-2349
Particularly this section:

Thanks for the reference.!
Helps me understand why my previous Kau/Kag minting activities show up on the chain explorer, but not "purchases" or when receiving on the exchange.
So my only proof of possession/purchase of Kau/Kag,,or crypto, will reside in my "recent transaction history" within the KMS dashboard ?

 

[Uchiki]

Thanks for the reference.!
Helps me understand why my previous Kau/Kag minting activities show up on the chain explorer, but not "purchases" or when receiving on the exchange.
So my only proof of possession/purchase of Kau/Kag,,or crypto, will reside in my "recent transaction history" within the KMS dashboard ?

You also have the confirmations which are received by email for trades and transfers (deposits and withdrawals).
You can also download your transaction history via the Account Balance or Cointracking extracts.

 

[Derek]

You also have the confirmations which are received by email for trades and transfers (deposits and withdrawals).
You can also download your transaction history via the Account Balance or Cointracking extracts.

In addition to that, if you're using an external wallet your balance will always be available on one of the blockchain explorers.

Again, there's that privacy trade-off.

 

[Uchiki]

Does this mean the VDC/KinesisPay should be the most reliable/consistent way the MFP grows? I foolishly bought KVT before I really understood what I was getting into, here's to hoping it's a happy little accident.

It will depend on the relative volumes going through each fee source.

Frequent trading of the same capital can generate high levels of fees.
It will be interesting to see how the Kinesis Pro contributes in this regard.

The VDC is likely to be a steady source of fees, especially as it becomes available in a wider range of countries, perhaps also via partners.

When it comes onstream, KinesisPay should compete with the card, offering a lower overall cost of transaction. It will also provide a foundation for the Kinesis Commercial Centre, which I haven't yet listed above as a fee source. We don't have much detail on that yet, but it's likely to be an online platform for merchants which generates sales commissions. I would think it will provide an attractive and competitive offering.

Also bear in mind that the VDC isn't a core element with the Kinesis partners in Indonesia, so direct transfers will dominate for payments there.

 

[Derek]

Does this mean the VDC/KinesisPay should be the most reliable/consistent way the MFP grows? I foolishly bought KVT before I really understood what I was getting into, here's to hoping it's a happy little accident.

No. I think the majority of fees going into the MFP will be coming from partners like Indonesia and the soon-to-be-announced Latin American nation.

Back-of-the-envelope numbers:

• 270 million Indonesians
• Average Monthly Income in Indonesia: $192
• If 30% of Indonesians use Kinesis, and they only spend 30% of their income on it, that means:

(81 million people) x ($57.60) x (0.0045) = $20,996,200 added to the yield pool from Indonesia, monthly.

So for KVTs:

• KVT Yield Pool from Indonesia: 20% of $20,996,200 = $4,199,240
• Divide that by 300,000 KVTs, and you come up with
• Monthly Yield per KVT from Indonesian Partnership = $14.00, or $167.97 per KVT annually.

I think that projected monthly contribution is about how much has been accrued to each KVT to date, so you can see how partnerships will contribute.

Now, I need to emphasize I don't work for Kinesis, I have no idea what's going on over there, and I pulled these numbers outta my butt, but you can see how these parts start to fit together. That's with 30% penetration of one country, at 30% of spending on the Kinesis-based app. Personally I think the ability for people to save and spend in Kinesis will be transformative, and I see it doing a lot better than that, but I am an optimist.

Now, add in a nation in Latin America, and a couple from Africa, and ...

 

[AmaLlulLa]

In addition to that, if you're using an external wallet your balance will always be available on one of the blockchain explorers.

Again, there's that privacy trade-off.

still wrapping my mind around this bits and bytes stuff, so sorry for the dumb questions. So if you chose to store your Kau/Kag/Crypto in an external wallet, does the act of transfering the Kau/Kag from the central exchange pooled account, create an on-chain event that then shows on the Chain explorer Balance for your addresses?--- and does movement to - from the wallet stay in sync with the KMS dashboard

 

[Uchiki]

still wrapping my mind around this bits and bytes stuff, so sorry for the dumb questions. So if you chose to store your Kau/Kag/Crypto in an external wallet, does the act of transfering the Kau/Kag from the central exchange pooled account, create an on-chain event that then shows on the Chain explorer Balance for your addresses?--- and does movement to - from the wallet stay in sync with the KMS dashboard

Another quote from the post that I referenced further up.

If a transaction is sent from an account, then on the blockchain it will show as a transfer from the central Exchange address to whatever target address.

(In your example, target would be your wallet address, for which you'd be able to see a balance on the blockchain.)

Dashboard balance only includes your KM account balance, so if you sent x to your wallet, your Dashboard balance would be lower by x.

If your wallet is linked to your KM account, then any KAU/KAG in your wallet would show under Yields/Holders/External addresses.

 

[AmaLlulLa]

Another quote from the post that I referenced further up.

(In your example, target would be your wallet address, for which you'd be able to see a balance on the blockchain.)

Dashboard balance only includes your KM account balance, so if you sent x to your wallet, your Dashboard balance would be lower by x.

If your wallet is linked to your KM account, then any KAU/KAG in your wallet would show under Yields/Holders/External addresses.

Thanx, yet again,,, It's starting to connect.... {Now, if I can only keep it in the gourd }

 

[Uchiki]

Several updates made to the initial post in this thread:

Removed reference to previous, discontinued Cashback voucher program and replaced with this:

"Cashback" program
There will be a cashback program introduced after the introduction of the physical debit cards.
For purchases made under this program, merchants will pay a commission.
The commission will be split between the purchaser and the fee pool.
The purchaser will be credited with a cashback amount with the remainder of the commission going to the fee pool.

Added:

Kinesis Mint production/sales credit
Details are yet to be confirmed for this, but there will be a credit to the fee pool based on production/sales from the refinery/mint.

Added:

Kinesis Pro
Kinesis Pro will be a separate exchange run by Kinesis and targeted towards the crypto market.
Fees will be deposited into the KMS fee pool after conversion to KAU/KAG.

Kinesis Pay was a future item. While there are further updates to come, this has now been updated based on current functionality:

Kinesis Pay
This involves a transfer from purchaser to merchant.
The net payment amount is discounted by the transaction fee.
While the purchaser pays the full value of the item they are purchasing (discounted net amount plus transaction fee), they pay no fee over and above the value of the item, so the fee is effectively funded by the merchant.

Added:

How frequently is the Master Fee Pool updated?
Updates to the Dashboard display are done daily just after midnight UTC.

 

[ZürichGnome]

Quick correction:

Minting
A 0.45% minting fee is applied in USD, but then used to purchase the KAU or KAG depending on which was minted.
This is off-chain, so won't show on the Explorer.

Minting is on-chain.
Does show on Explorer
and thus comes out in the Watcher CSV extract file

As demonstrated multiple times by example here:

1. Minting. Both types = 1) EPD (from physical) or 2) from fiat cash
2. KAG minting
3. more examples (just search for string Minting)

@Uchiki clearly testing us to see if we're awake

 

[Uchiki]

Quick correction:


Minting is on-chain.
Does show on Explorer
and thus comes out in the Watcher CSV extract file

As demonstrated multiple times by example here:

1. Minting. Both types = 1) EPD (from physical) or 2) from fiat cash
2. KAG minting
3. more examples (just search for string Minting)

@Uchiki clearly testing us to see if we're awake

Thanks - I've updated:

Minting
A 0.45% minting fee is applied.
Minting transactions are on-chain, so will show on the Explorer.

 

[Uchiki]

Minting
Minting transactions are on-chain, so will show on the Explorer.
However, the 0.45% minting fee is applied in USD and then used to purchase the KAU or KAG depending on which was minted.
The fee is therefore off-chain.
See here for further detail

Updated this section for clarity.

 

[NoJoKin]

Question regarding the minting fee: "the 0.45% minting fee is applied in USD and then used to purchase the KAU or KAG."

What is the primary reason for choosing the USD as the fiat currency of choice for that exchange? If it is simply bc the primary global price-setting is presently still in USD, are there contingencies in place for or discussion about changing that should should there be a change, as may be occurring behind the scenes and soon openly, in the exchange(s) that determine(s) the value of gold from east (COMEX/LBMA) to west (eg, Shanghai/Dubai)?

BTW ... I and no doubt all of us here appreciate all the effort you put in to trying to clarify so much, Uchiki. Thank you.

 

[SteveW]

What is the primary reason for choosing the USD as the fiat currency of choice for that exchange? If it is simply bc the primary global price-setting is presently still in USD, are there contingencies in place for or discussion about changing that should should there be a change, as may be occurring behind the scenes and soon openly, in the exchange(s) that determine(s) the value of gold from east (COMEX/LBMA) to west (eg, Shanghai/Dubai)?

I believe, as you indicate, that the USD is the primary pricing mechanism for gold and silver. It provides by far the greatest liquidity on the exchange.

The KMS is ready for any change in the major pricing currency as there are 8 fiat/KAG(KAU) pairs.

 

[NoJoKin]

I believe, as you indicate, that the USD is the primary pricing mechanism for gold and silver. It provides by far the greatest liquidity on the exchange.

The KMS is ready for any change in the major pricing currency as there are 8 fiat/KAG(KAU) pairs.

Yes, it does provide by far the greatest liquidity bc it's the easiest by far to create from nothing ... and especially for the CBs' bullion banks that have constantly suppressed the prices of Au/Ag in FRNs for decades now using nothing but created (from nothing) liquidity.

There's never a shortage for them of fiat/electronic USD for doing that. I just hope we have some alternative to a USD exchange in operation long before the reality that it's a dying (dead?) currency hits the markets like a freight train.

I'm not saying I have any suggestion on how to do that at the moment, but I am interested in their plans on or even their thoughts about how and when to change the primary pricing mechanism in a timely and efficient manner, and again before the SHTF for the USD.

And btw, I don't think they presently have KAU&KAG/Yuan or Rouble pairs do they?

PS ... I guess what I'm really saying is that I hope mgmt has plans to get away as much as and as soon as reasonably possible from using or relying on the USD as they can.

 

[SteveW]

PS ... I guess what I'm really saying is that I hope mgmt has plans to get away as much as and as soon as reasonably possible from using or relying on the USD as they can.

All fiat currencies are produced by alchemy i.e. conjured from thin air. They have been ever since August 1971 when the underpinning of the USD, redeemable for gold at $35 per oz, was temporarily removed. Now excess sovereign USD trade balances are used to buy US treasuries.

The BRICS might well be introducing a new trade currency that is asset backed to use for trade settlements. If this includes gold then Kinesis is well positioned as a retail gold/silver currency.